Claudia: Alright so, I had this idea after thinking about when we talked about the lone wolf a while back, I had released something to my blog on the topic and then kept adding onto it and you and I bounced some ideas around back and forth, and you also made an edit of Ayn Rand’s individual. So that’s what I want to have a conversation about here: the outsider, individual, lone wolf, and the collective. I think it is a conversation that doesn’t necessarily happen, most people will either fall into a category that they will radically apply to themselves as a part of a larger group they are loyal to, then just as such there are people who will stick to a weird uniform nonconformity (which in itself is contradictory) and try to be outside of society while simultaneously being in their own establishment. It’s like in 1984 where the book that Winston Smith gets after deciding to betray the Party and it describes that all the nations in the world are actually pretty similar, they have essentially the same social and cultural structure making any sort of resistance just as uniform. However I would say that there are many people who are individuals, black sheep and lone wolves that legitimately do not have an allegiance to the collective; the degenerate artists.
Shane: the lone wolf, the black sheep - the scapegoat! They do in fact exist. Seems every family has one, and then there is the personal outsider, the person YOU feel should be outside, but they are standing right next to you. I think the outsider is a byproduct of our society whereas, the scapegoat or black sheep is a natural phenomenon… they exist and it seems, they might be the “alpha” or “leader” of that pack, so when the pack picks a scapegoat or black sheep they do so to challenge the leader, to push them toward a higher level or to test them and break them in order to push towards a higher level… the opposition to the leader getting cast as the scapegoat and pushed into greatness or loss is part of the evolutionary process.
Claudia: I don’t necessarily see the outsider as too dissimilar from the scapegoat… Those who choose to get away from society could do it as a natural progression, nature vs. nurture. The song Rock N Roll Nigger by Patti Smith comes to mind with the lines “Baby was a black sheep…” and “Outside of society is where I want to be”. So I would say that black sheep are nurtured through nature and Outsiders are naturalized through nurture to go off of your idea of the two. Both cause uproar, and where there is scapegoating, outsiders I think are necessary to go that far. It’s like how the Red Scare evolved into the Satanic Panic which (in my opinion) really ended upon artists deciding to go out and be that Satanic image that was so horrifying; the Black Metal burning churches scene in Norway, Marilyn Manson tearing up Bibles and wiping his ass with the American flag in the US, they all made themselves into exactly what was feared and scapegoated.
Shane: OOoooOoooo… LOVE the idea that the “aesthetic terrorism” art movement was a reflection of how THEY were seen VS what they were seeing. I’ve see artists as being prophetic, sewers of the truth, architects of the future. I know Dr.LaVey took the idea of a “sinner” and based his philosophy on how the religious see those who are not religious… so I think you have a solid point as the “aesthetic terrorism” art movement was highly influenced by Dr. LaVey, though we took his idea of Satanism and decided to play with it rather than follow it.
I see the outsider and the scapegoat as different because the outsider might decide to be outside but the scapegoat never chooses the title. The black sheep and the outsider could be seen as the same or similar… I see the black sheep coming first, the family makes the black sheep feel so different and odd so they naturally gravitate towards the outsider world… helping to prove nurture is so important for a full and healthy life.
Claudia: So, the Outsider is outside of society because they want to be as the quote says, and the black sheep is the scapegoat, that makes sense. People like Charles Manson come to mind as a scapegoated figure, they are the boogeyman who decided to be exactly what people called them (in interviews that is in the case of Charlie, though he is more chilled out in his interviews and conversations with Nikolas Schreck I have noticed)...
I would say there is overlap though as, if you create yourself to be an outsider you get treated as a scapegoat- devil made them do it sort of thing. It’s like how when people label themselves a certain way their actions are defined and explained as such, “Oh, well Oswald, he was a commie…”
Shane: Hmmmmm… interesting. First off, I hadn’t considered the black sheep and the scapegoat as the same thing. I mentioned the outsider is by choice, and I think that is only some of the time, the outsider by choice is usually someone who has privilege, the kind of privilege where they can leave a situation or are from a wealthy family, so they can always escape their choices… I think the margins are considered outsider. Perhaps those who CAN be saved from their want to be seen as outsiders are usually the culture vultures, the bath in the sad stories of the poor and forgotten to create a personality or present an understanding they really don’t have… outsider by choice is a fucking lie. We are outsiders because we don’t play well inside or aren’t even invited inside… we are the remnants of the animal in all their carnal, savage glory… so we are outsiders, like a dog chain’d to a society we never wanted.
The blacksheep seems to be a family distinction or a group distinction… a label for one who doesn’t fit within their family or culture… the blacksheep is usually the alpha driving uncomfortable change in their family, culture or groups they identify with. The blacksheep is courageous and wants more than survival. I’d consider the Satanist a black sheep - born, not made… a person of sensitivity, impulse and brutal truths that burn bridges.
The Scapegoat is a person accused by others. Most of the time, the scapegoat isn’t even a problem, they are used as a smokescreen by those who are calling out a supposed “Scapegoat” - every crime has a scapegoat, while most outsiders and/or black sheep are persecuted for who and what they are or whether they can conform to societal rules, isn’t considered.
Claudia: What I mean is that the black sheep is the more likely to be made into scapegoat by being that pusher of uncomfortable alternatives and changes.
The outsider as you describe it makes sense, it seems Darwinian in a sense of it being carnal, savage glory but due to the society surrounding it keeps it within. It’s like 1984 where when Winston tried to escape and tried to attack the party, in the end he still ended up Loving Big Brother.
I definitely agree that the black sheep are satanic and are born not made, it’s a natural personality type.
And should it be true that Oswald was not truly the killer of Kennedy, as many suspect, the Scapegoat would make sense. As does the Charles Manson story in this, the real story not the one Bugliosi and the rest of Hollywood used to cover up the drug deal gone wrong true Helter Skelter story which in reality didn’t involve him, but because he had some radical ideas with ATWA that people of the time didn’t seem to believe he was blamed and labeled as a psychotic cult leader…
Shane: thinking about what you said as far as the odds that a blacksheep could be used as the Scapegoat just because of their social status, is sad but true of most of what we are talking about it… unless you are a visitor to the margins, a person as I spoke of before, with privilege… a person with privilege can be who and what they want because their privilege offers them resources most in the margins don’t have. Yes you can be gay in a small town, but the poor gay is victimized, the rich one becomes the mayor.
I suppose the culture vulture is what I’m always at odds with… they re-write the narrative and have the power to do so, they are a lie.
the true outsider/black sheep is the truth. The Scapegoat a bit of both, as the Baphomet always should be.
Yeah Scapegoating is a thing, especially in court room drama. Scapegoating is for the religious minded to fall for and the skeptic to question… a more intelligent populace would understand Scapegoating as a dark form of marketing and call it what it is.
Manson - he was a person with ideas and as we’ve discussed many times, those wild fringe ideas that are against the status-quo are dangerous to that status-quo and are acted upon by those the ideas threaten.
Controlling the narrative is the only battle we really have has humans… until we have a smarter populace, the religious minded depend on quick and easy answers and there are always those who want to control the weak and stupid… why I’ll never know.
Claudia: Well, as known, history is always written by the winner, the real truths come out years later. It’s been over 70 years and Unit 731 (“Auschwitz of the East”) isn’t taught, nor is Operation Paperclip, the public at large knows little of these events.
Humans are the apex predator, humans have no competition from any other species, so it is seemingly a natural creation of a new food chain. The religious leaders and those who control the weak and stupid are psychic vampires. If you want stupidity and that type of subjugation to be ridden, getting rid of willful idiocy through making sure the bullshit is known would be a great start. How that would be done however is an open discussion though. It’s like Bill Maher said in the film Religulous, “Faith means making a virtue out of not thinking.”
The word Satanist was for centuries used as a slur to justify the attack upon the other, the scapegoat. The baphomet would certainly be a wonderful representation of this concept of the skeptic and those who dare to live outside the superficial norms and conventions. You yourself would know much of that, being run out of towns for the simple word and association.
Shane: OooOOOoo … I don’t believe history is written by the victor. I think the victor has reasons to lie. Truth is held in art and poetry… the people's history is also held within all of the art in the world. Someday art from the palestinians will be dug out from the rubble of “war” and we will see truth, not what the “victor” told the religious minded in the moment, but the feelings of a person brave and generous enough to share the worst moments of their lives… after reading howard zinn's a people's history, it is clear, assholes sell history like assholes sell religion.
Claudia: Interesting. I definitely agree that art and poetry are where the truth is at. I would say that history is sold by assholes, but regardless like with Unit 731 eventually someone digs up the bodies and it gets out to the public. The victors write what they want it to be but it will always be revised when it’s apparent that one narrative no longer makes sense or is evidently falsified.
Shane: Truths are found out, but time has a way of removing the urgency of a historic moment. World War 2 was an abstract to me growing up… it was only of film and paper, it was a story… The lies told back then do leak out here and there, but what good does that truth do as far as justice? To be lied to by those you trust is an awful experience. Governments, politicians, they always present themselves as honest, they need you to trust them… they need you to believe… but lie to convince you to trust them… the Unit 731 you mention… who even cares anymore? Those who want to perfect war crimes as well as those who want to stop them, so that truth is just a resource today… among the politicians you can trust vs. those awful people from so long ago… totally being sarcastic about trusting politicians.
Ever wonder about the knowledge that doesn’t leak out? That is so dangerous it’s protected… for me, I want to live forever so I can see the ending of stories told vs. facts that unfold. I dig that you can see both the positive and the negative in a situation, but I’m pissed about lies told that I will not live to see their truths unfold.
Claudia: I use Unit 731 as an example of how while the truth eventually comes out (though technically speaking, the USSR actually told the public first but the US politicians wrote it off as communist propaganda) it’s written by the winners, it coincides with your point of trusting politicians as this was the beginning of the McCarthy era… also it’s a really interesting thing to look into.
You ask who even cares anymore? And to that I say, life is lived forward and understood backwards. History, the present and possible future, being human ideas are no different.
I definitely understand and relate to wanting to see the end of it all and what actually happened in the past and the unveiling of the lies. Now I do agree that any and all information available should be publicly available and easily accessible, but of course the only way to keep the power they have it’s hidden. It’s why someone like Julian Assange is such an important person in the scheme of modern events.
On that note, I will say that I understand the view that certain things may be better to keep harder to find out how to do; like the instructions on how to make diseases and such. One person I heard speak of this made the point that the school shooter with this knowledge would become angels of death in the form of bacteria releases.
However while that point makes sense, I would like to see information readily available regardless. An interesting point explored in the Purge series, is that most average people don’t want to kill one another, so the government who instituted the annual night of legalized murder in order to take out the “undesirable” in the country (homeless, low income, etc.)
Shane: Written off as “communist propaganda” - so, we get the the heart of the matter… the information, all of it IS out there… occult knowledge is only occult until you find it… so, maybe it’s not the free flow of information but it’s the concept of truth… what is truth, how do we decide a truth and… WHO or WHAT is our source, do we have a bias to that source?
So Claudia, how is the control of information or narrative relative to the “Individual, lone wolf, outsider and the collective”?
Perhaps the blacksheep/scapegoat are essential tools of the propagandist in their effort to control a narrative/truth… if they can't gain trust, build enough distrust in your opponent where the choice is a lesser of two “evils” kind of choice. A manipulation of truth.
Hiding information because of what could happen is weird. I’m against the death penalty for the reason that I cant see how to give the trust to the executioner or the government who decides if it’s ok to kill a person.
So, who decides what is hidden and why it’s hidden.
I’m certain there is information that shouldn’t make it easy for angry folks to use in ways it shouldn’t but again, an inventor's intent doesn’t matter if the invention works for my intent… just like the Julian Assange issue, who decides? Why is he NOT treated as a journalist? He shared information of importance to a nation and its taxpayers… was the information dangerous? Yes. it caused a reaction from many that was hostile. Can any information be argued to be dangerous, yep. So… if we are going to hide information, ALL should have access to earning access to heavy information… as, let’s say, a Nuclear Scientist does… but ALL DO NOT have access… it takes money & health, nothing poor folks have… so we haven’t access to ALL the knowledge we’d want to study.
We are kept ignorant for a reason. I agree, dangerous information should be guarded… but everyone who is interested should be able to earn access, at the least through education.
Protecting information from the school shooter just because of what could happen is absolutely silly as school shooters DO have access to destructive information, we ALL have that access on-line. I believe Cyanide can be produced by a school shooter… Why aren’t they?
Because school Shooting is an impulsive act, like suicide. It’s not well thought out even when it seems it might be… there’s a psychology behind using a gun vs. using a knive vs. hand to hand ect… now, governments have access to dangerous information and could use that information of a government they are fighting, like smallpox laced blankets… why was it okay to trust that information with those who used it to hurt the native americans?
The control of information is a power move to control the masses. If we knew better, most of our society would operate so very differently.
I’ve never seen the Purge series.
Claudia: I think that the individual, black sheep and lone wolves are related to the control of information because the independence of the black sheep makes for the black sheep to be willing to seek out that occult knowledge whereas the rest will not. The lone wolves can take the information as well and use it for their own devices, as one has seen with history, lone wolves can be powerful. Billy The Kid, Teddy Roosevelt, Arthur Desmond.
The collective may welcome to accept this information, but only so far as they are comfortable with hearing it out. For example if it doesn’t skew to the political leanings of the people checking it out they might flat out reject it, same for if it distorts and pulls the string of a long since inserted false narrative.
Ayn Rand said that the individual is the smallest minority in the world, and she is right, the black sheep and lone wolves are like sub-sects of the individual. The artists that depict things so the collective and their “art critics” can consume the information in an alternative way.
“We all know that Art is not truth. Art is a lie that makes us realize truth at least the truth that is given us to understand. The artist must know the manner whereby to convince others of the truthfulness of his lies.”
― Pablo Picasso
Julian Assange is in my opinion definitely a journalist, but that’s what makes him dangerous to the government! He actually is a journalist who didn’t tell people only one side in a way designed to keep them subject to control, which makes him a loose cannon for the government, he very much blew a hole in their information game. “Don’t wanna be an American Idiot, one nation controlled by the media”.
And of course people have a right to information about how to make nuclear devices if interested, but it’s a power game. Consider that the argument about sharing information about building a nuclear weapon was ongoing even before the detonation of the Trinity test, there were many at Los Alamos and within that sphere who argued for the sharing of that information. But the government wouldn’t allow such correspondence with the Soviet Union because of the communist boogeyman they knew they would need once the threat of the Nazis was gone, fear controls.
End of Interaction.
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